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Jersey Arts Podcast
The Jersey Arts Podcast presents in-depth, one-on-one conversations with the liveliest and most intriguing personalities in New Jersey’s arts scene. From the casts of hit shows to critically acclaimed film producers; from world-renowned poets to classically trained musicians; from groundbreaking dance visionaries to cutting-edge fine artists, our podcast connects you to what’s happening in your local arts community.
Jersey Arts Podcast
Norm Lewis: Actor, Activist & Broadway Icon
Theater icon Norm Lewis is known for a lot of things: breaking barriers as Broadway's first African-American Phantom in The Phantom of the Opera; lending his stunning baritone to the roles of Sweeney Todd, Porgy, and Jarvert; playing Senator Edison Davis on the hit TV show Scandal—the list goes on and on. But what you may not know that the Emmy, Grammy, Tony, and SAG Award nominee works just as hard behind the scenes as an activist and founding member of Black Theatre United.
On September 20th, Norm Lewis will sing at Mayo Performing Arts Center to kick off Mayo PAC’s 30th season, so he joined the Jersey Arts Podcast to chat about his upcoming concert, career highlights, Black Theater United, and one of his first-ever professional gigs at Jersey’s own Harrah’s Atlantic City.
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I'm Maddie Orton and you're listening to the Jersey Arts Podcast. Broadway icon Norm Lewis is known for a lot of things. Breaking barriers as the first African-American Phantom in Phantom of the Opera on Broadway, lending his stunning baritone to the roles of , T, odd, Porgy and Javert, playing Senator Edison Davis on the hit TV show Scandal. The list goes on and on. But you may not know that the Emmy, Grammy, tony and SAG Award nominee works just as hard behind the scenes as an activist and founding member of Black Theater United. On September 20th, Norm Lewis will sing at Mayo Performing Arts Center to kick off Mayo Pack's 30th season. So we grabbed the opportunity to chat with him about his upcoming concert career highlights, black Theatre United and one of his first-ever professional gigs, which just so happened to be at Jersey's own Harrah's Atlantic City. Take a listen. Thank you so much for joining me, Norm Lewis. I'm a longtime fan of yours and this is just such a privilege.
Norm Lewis:Oh, thank you, I'm honored. Thank you for having me.
Maddie Orton:So you'll be coming to Mayo PA on September 20th for the theater's 30th annual opening night and I cannot wait to talk about that. But first I want to back up a little bit. This is not obviously your first show in New Jersey, but one of the first professional gigs you ever did, I think, was playing Protean in Forum at Harrah's in Atlantic City.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, we call them the proteins. It was my second job in New York, so what happened was I moved from Florida, I worked in advertising for a long time for a newspaper down in Orlando and finally got into this world of theater and my first gig was at the Candlewood Playhouse in Connecticut. But then I ended up auditioning for get this Nipsey Russell. I don't know if you know that you might be too young for that.
Maddie Orton:I do know that name.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, so for those people who don't know who by name, who Nipsey Russell is, he was the tin man in The Wiz the movie with Diana Ross and Michael Jackson, so, but he had a life before that.
Norm Lewis:He was a comedian who did a lot of game shows. He was also on a show called car 54. So he had a history and he was playing Pseudolus in this New Jersey casino Harris Casino version Of the show. Now the show is usually around Two and a half to three hours, but we condensed it down to To 90 minutes. What they do. And actually, when Vegas ended up Getting shows like that, they would make them 90 minutes long so that way they can get people back out on the casino floor, you know what I mean, Right that makes sense.
Norm Lewis:There was no like first act, second act. You just saw the show and you get out.
Maddie Orton:That makes sense. Yeah, same reason. There's no like clocks or anything.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, exactly. So it was fun. I did it for about six months and, yeah, I had my taste of Jersey. I was a Jersey for a while.
Maddie Orton:That sounds like a fun place. I mean, what do you do when you're like living in a casino and like working in a? Is that? Is that a fun experience or is that just like very? I can't even imagine.
Norm Lewis:Well, for me, I mean, I was so excited. I was young I mean relatively young, I was older than a lot of people who had just moved to New York, but I was youngish. It's still in my 20s, my late 20s and I ended up working something I was excited about. I was doing a musical theater show, singing and dancing, and I was working with someone I admired Nip. Have any bills. They would feed you so you could go in and you could eat any time of day at the casino. They put us up in this really beautiful townhouse community called Brigantine Island, which was not that far.
Maddie Orton:Oh yeah, that's great.
Norm Lewis:And so it was the good life. For six months I had a good time.
Maddie Orton:Oh man, that sounds like a dream.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, truly, truly.
Maddie Orton:So this was not, theater was not your first job. You started in marketing. I think we're all very grateful that you transitioned into theater. What made you go a different route initially and how did you end up moving over?
Norm Lewis:I majored in business in college and so I was working for the newspaper already while I was still in school. And then I worked, I moved from the production department. Basically, the production department is where you put the newspaper into the machine, it opens up and then coupons or different sections of the newspaper fall in. So I did that for a while.
Norm Lewis:Then I moved, there was a position in marketing that opened up so I took that job and then maybe six or so many months later, because I was someone who worked in the marketing department, I was close to the advertising department, so they said there's a position open for classified sales. So I went over there and did telephone sales and then moved up to like telemarketing and then ended up doing a little bit of outside sales before I quit and got into musical theater.
Maddie Orton:What made you decide to take the leap, cause that's, that's kind of it's a really scary leap to make, I'm sure.
Norm Lewis:Well, I was always told that I had a nice voice, and then I ended up doing little gigs Like I was, even though I was majoring in business in school, I may. I was still in the choir and did a little bit of theater in college, and so I stayed close to it. After that, even working from my nine to five, I would do contests at night at different bars and I would sing here, sing there. Sometimes you would win, sometimes you'd lose.
Maddie Orton:What was your go-to song?
Norm Lewis:God I ended up doing. I took two Stevie Wonder songs for once in my life and what was the other one? Oh Jesus, why can't I think of the other one? Oh my God, it'll come back to me in a minute.
Maddie Orton:Well, to be fair, you probably haven't had to audition in a long time, so that's you know, I get that Right.
Norm Lewis:But you know, in fact, in fact I got really into church hopping back in the day, so that was back when a lot of the contemporary Christian music was very theatrical and I started following people like Lorna Harris and a guy named Steve Green. But I used to love just like Kristen Chenoweth would say, I loved this woman by the name of Sandy Patty and Sandy Patty had this beautiful type Christian music but it was really dramatic. So I even brought in to some of the bars. I sang some of her songs. She had a jazz one that was really cool and there was another one that was that was cool and I won a couple of contests with that song.
Maddie Orton:So that is so great. Yeah, I wonder if that's contests with that song. So that is so great. Yeah, I wonder if that's the audience for that. But I love it.
Norm Lewis:It wasn't. It wasn't, but it was the fact that I had some of my friends that would come from work and then also people were drunk and they were like you know they, they were like I guess I was a showman, so I kind of got them. Yeah, you know, anyway, that's a whole. Nother, that's a whole nother I love it.
Maddie Orton:Did you grow up doing theater?
Norm Lewis:No, no, I didn't get into theater until later in life. I didn't know I could sing until I was 16.
Maddie Orton:Oh my gosh, I can't imagine that.
Norm Lewis:So it was. You know the journey of that. I'm sure people, a lot of people, have heard this already, but I sang in church, so let me just try this. I'll try to be in the choir in school. It'll be an easy grade, I'll meet some girls, it'll be fun. And it turned out to be my aha moment, because it was the first time I'd ever really was surrounded by these voices that sounded so beautiful that singing classical music. I never sang classical music. I heard it but I never sang it. And you know I grew up singing gospel or R&B, you know, in my household. So it was just my cathartic moment of like, oh, this is really something.
Maddie Orton:So what can people expect from your upcoming concert at Mayo Pack?
Norm Lewis:Ah, I guess, my love of theater. You know I entered into this industry by musical theater. My foray into it was actually in high school, when I got like really into it. Someone suggested I go and check out a couple of albums and one of them was the Wiz, oh sure, and so that definitely is the show and the musical that resonates with me so passionately, because Stephanie Mills and Andre De Shields and you know that entire cast, you know hit and battle actually. God rest his soul. Yeah, but it was one of those things where you go, wow, I know this story just from the movie that preceded it with Judy Garland, but this is told in a way that I truly get. So, yeah, it's my journey through the musical theater world but also other music that influenced me over the years.
Maddie Orton:That's great. Do you do a song from the Wiz?
Norm Lewis:I do, I do.
Maddie Orton:Are we going to say what it is? We don't have to no.
Norm Lewis:No, we can say. I mean I usually do the song home because it just you know, and I've actually put it on. Now I sound like I'm sound like a salesman. But I put it on my second album, my Christmas album, even though it's not a Christmas song. It just felt right.
Maddie Orton:Yeah, you know, I love that, I also that, that album has my kid listens to mean old lion.
Norm Lewis:That was one of his first musical theaters.
Maddie Orton:He's only two and a half, but he has a lion towel that he wears when he gets out of the bathtub Right. And the only way I can get him out of the bathtub is, if we like, dance and sing to mean old lion.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, yeah.
Maddie Orton:Actually, one of your songs is another one of his first musical theater songs is I Used to Sing, I'd Rather Be Sailing to Him from A New Brain which is a bit of a deep cut, but I think just like one of the most beautiful songs.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, yeah, bill Finn did a great job on that song, that's just a gorgeous, gorgeous song and almost completely kid appropriate. I changed a couple of lyrics.
Maddie Orton:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but otherwise otherwise perfect.
Norm Lewis:Yes, yes.
Maddie Orton:Just a few months back, at the 2024 NAACP Theater Awards, you received a Lifetime Achievement Award and you're also a founding member of Black Theater United a Lifetime Achievement Award, and you're also a founding member of Black Theater United. You've, very notably, broken barriers as the first person of color to play Phantom in Phantom of the Opera. What role does activism play in your life and your career?
Norm Lewis:Well, it's interesting that you bring all that up, because I think activism has always been a part of my life, whether I knew it or not. You know, just by showing up in the room that was, I was given the greatest advice by someone who was a veteran, who wasn't, you know, a person of color, but he was someone that said just show up unless they specifically asked for blonde hair and blue eyes. Just let them tell you no.
Maddie Orton:I love that.
Norm Lewis:So that was one thing, but it became apparent especially when I was either the only one or one of two or three that was in the room. It wasn't so much that I was actively being an activist, but I was just trying to be someone who was of equal stature and showing that and just gaining that respectability. The NAACP award was just totally out of left field and I was very honored because I think of myself still as that 20 something year old that moved to New York, you know, back in 1989. But yeah, I mean, people have come up to me over the years and have said things such as oh wow, you are the reason why I'm in theater, or I've really watched you and listened to you and, you know, emulated you and respected you, and so that means a lot. So I try to keep that sort of reputation. That's for me, reputation is more important than talent.
Norm Lewis:But then, as far as Black Theatre United, you know that came about at a because of some horrible I can't even say it horrible circumstances in 2020. Obviously, we're in the pandemic, all the murders that were happening and obviously the George Floyd thing, and a lot of people felt a certain way, especially a lot of young people of color, or a lot of young black people. They were looking to us to get answers, the people who are older. And then we were looking to the producers and the theater owners to say, okay, what do you have to say? Because these kids are saying they're screaming. So we didn't want to put point fingers in anyone's faces, but what we wanted to do is just those relationships that we have create something special During the pandemic. What we did it was LaChanze and Audra McDonald, who came together, brought us together on a Zoom, and we were on for hours, like literally four or five hours, just trying to discuss things and see what we could do. And then we decided to form Black Theatre United. We were trying to come up with the right name and all that stuff, and so that's what we did.
Norm Lewis:And then, over the next few months, we were trying to figure out a strategic plan. We hired someone to do that. We few months we were trying to figure out a strategic plan. We hired someone to do that, we got donations and everything to do that. And then, within I would say, another six months, we were still under the pandemic, but then we were being let out a little bit. I think that was 2021, when we were being let out with the onset of, hopefully, the vaccine and all that.
Norm Lewis:But we stayed on Zoom and we created a summit and we brought together theater owners, producers, creators, heads of unions and we had a full on discussion. We hired a facilitator who knows about DEI and who can bolster this conversation to get it started, and then we broke off in different rooms and we said listen, tell us exactly how you feel as someone who is not a person of color. What is it that you are seeing? What is it that you want to know? Ask us questions. And that's what we did. And we came back together into one unit and put together those notes and we created what we call the new deal. And the new deal, you know, it's not the constitution of the united states, but what it is. It's it's holding people accountable and making sure that voices are at the table.
Norm Lewis:Now there's been a lot of changes over the years, as far as you know. Like you said, I was the first african american to play phantom on broadway, but I had seen representation of Robert Guillaume, who was the first African-American to play it, but he was in Los Angeles. Sure, you know, lachanze, saying, out of all of her years of being on Broadway or in many theatrical pieces, she only for the first time she had a black director. It was back in 2021. And Wow, charles Randolph Wright.
Norm Lewis:So you know we not only are making strides on stage, you know, hamilton actually would knock down so many doors, and opportunities On stage is. I don't want to say it's great, but it's definitely progressing. But backstage is where we want to like introduce more directors, more choreographers, more stage managers, more people, more choreographers, more stage managers, more people. You know there's I can count on one hand how many people are on the crew on a Broadway stage who are of color or black specifically. So we wanted to create something that would open those kinds of avenues, because there's a lot of people who are not necessarily, you know, singer, dancer or actors, but they love theater. Sure, we have partnered with a lot of the PR firms that are in town, with the management companies that are in town that deal with theatrical, and we now have interns, mentor, mentee situations and we've put those people and we've done it now for the past three years and it's gone really well. In fact, I think three of our mentees have been hired in those capacities.
Maddie Orton:Oh, that's great.
Norm Lewis:Yeah, and now Black 39 is getting ready to start an educational program this fall. We're partnering up with another organization and we want to start at the junior high level. We think that they're mature enough to kind of understand what this is all about and then hopefully lead on into high school and into on into college. Now again, they don't. You don't have to sing, dance or act, but if you love theater there's other ways to be involved, and so that's what that's what BTU is all about. We really want to be that.
Norm Lewis:We call ourselves the NAACP of theater and we want to just be a vessel for people to be able to come to. You know, there are other organizations that we really collaborate with, and that's Black Theater Coalition, there's a Broadway Advocacy Coalition, there's the Black Broadway Men, I think there's the Black Broadway Women. I might be saying that wrong, but there's other organizations. We're all saying the same thing, but you know, everybody uses whatever tools or relationships that they have to make sure that we progress you've played phantom not once, but twice actually, because you were also uh, starring in love never dies, which is the sequel to phantom.
Maddie Orton:You've played so many iconic musical theater bucket list roles and I just jotted down a couple and I was like I'm just going to I can't name all of them because it's going to take up half the podcast but Harold Hill in Music man, cole House in Ragtime, javert in Les Mis, porgy and Porgy in Fes, sweeney Todd, and I could keep going. Who else is on your to-do list at this point?
Norm Lewis:Well, you know, it's interesting. I get. I get this question a few times and I will say there was. You know, when I was younger I did have more of a list. You know, I wanted to play Curly and in Oklahoma I wanted to play uh, uh, what's the character's name in Carousel? I forget his name, but in in nine I wanted to be the lead guy in that.
Maddie Orton:Oh yeah, that's a great one, Now that I'm older.
Norm Lewis:I mean, I have to be realistic, at least in that regard. But yeah, you know, I'm actually a little bit more excited about the new works that's coming out. There's a lot of people that are right, like Douglas Lyons, who is killing it. You know, he wrote Chicken and B and biscuits and a few other pieces. I want to see what's new out there, you know, uh, I love the old stuff and I think there's a place for it. But you know, right now I'm just I'm kind of excited about the new things, the new works yeah, that's great.
Maddie Orton:Do you, looking back on the roles that you have done so far, are there any that are like your absolute favorite that might be surprising to people or some that people would say like that makes them. I mean, you know, I would imagine playing Phantom is one of the greatest experiences of all time.
Norm Lewis:Yes, yes, and actually one of the hardest, one of the most challenging, I would say too. I mean, I was up for the challenge, but it was definitely the most challenging because of the fact that I'm not a tenor Usually they hire tenors I'm a baritone.
Maddie Orton:Oh, interesting.
Norm Lewis:And so you had to sound. Very. There was a sound that people expected let's just say that Because the music is so lush and your voice is one of the instruments that is in that show. So I couldn't sound like Michael Crawford, but I could do the best that I could to sound like what I thought the Phantom was. And so it was. Yeah, it was a nice challenge that lasted for a while. I would say I'm known for Phantom, I'm known for Javert, I'm known for Sweeney, todd, porgy and Bess. You know obviously for that as well. But there was a show that I did back in 1998. That was called 1998 or 99, doesn't matter, but it was called Captain's Courageous. It was off Broadway with MTC. It was with Treat Williams God rest his soul. He's no longer with us, but he was the lead and I was one of this.
Norm Lewis:It was a group of guys, just guys. It was a fraternity and we were portraying. I don't know if you ever saw the movie with Mickey Rooney or read the book, but it was about these guys that were on a fishing boat and out of Gloucester, massachusetts, and what we did was we used the book the Perfect Storm as our Bible, even though it was more because that was our storytelling was back before the depression. The Perfect Storm was a little bit more modern, I think it was like in the 80s or 90s or something. But we use that as reference and I was trying to figure out my character because I was the only black guy in the show and I was the cook on the ship.
Norm Lewis:So this Gloucester, massachusetts accent. They were trying to get us into that sort of vein. Something felt wrong about it for me. Okay, okay. But I said, okay, I'll still learn it.
Norm Lewis:But going deeper and digging deeper into my character, I found out that these ships would go down to the Caribbean and fish and then hire people from the Caribbean to be on these boats or be in that community. And I was like, oh my God, that's it. That's it, that's my character. So I said I was from Trinidad and I put on a Trinidadian accent and I actually only had four lines in the show. But for me, saying those four lines in that accent was more authentic and my subtext actually helped my character more. You know, I had one lines here and there, but I would say it in that accent instead of a glosser Massachusetts accent. So it's all about, you know, just trying to find the depths of what is authentic for you as a character. And you know, even when I played the Phantom, it was funny because, yes, the show had been on at that time 24 years and there was no way I was going to go in there and change anything. It was just I'm just this guy.
Norm Lewis:My skin color is different than most of the guys that have played the role. That's the only difference. But, when I was learning the show, I was like, yeah, okay, I'm going to stand here, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. But then, when Harold Prince, we got to the last scene and he said, norm, okay, this is what I want you to do.
Maddie Orton:Wait how Prince came back to put you into the show. Uh-huh, uh-huh Does that always happen with replacements.
Norm Lewis:Well, not really. So what he did was he had the assistant, or I don't want to say the assistant, but he was the guy that was a resident director, let's put it that way. His name was Seth Sklar I always have to say it slowly because it's such a tongue twister Seth Sklar. Anyway, he was wonderful. He really took us on the journey because he'd been working so closely with Harold Prince. But the final few days before I went in, harold came in and directed me and so he's like look, in this final scene, I want you to be this petulant child, I just want you to go as far as you want, like it's my ball and I'm taking it and I'm going home. That's the thing I said. He said you. I'll let you know if you go too far.
Norm Lewis:So, that was at least he gave me the freedom for in that that part of the show. So I took advantage of it and I did a lot of crazy things and I was just in in fear of him saying, okay, crazy things. And I was just in in fear of him saying, okay, that's too far, that's too far. He came to see it several times and he was like, no, you're good.
Maddie Orton:Oh, wow, that's so cool. That is very cool. I think of you primarily as, like, a classical musical theater person, but I did also.
Norm Lewis:you know I didn't realize how much rock opera you've done. Yeah.
Maddie Orton:Yeah, so you've done which. I was like, oh, wow, I cause I, you know, I think of such a classical, beautiful baritone. And then I'm like, oh, he's done, tommy, twice.
Norm Lewis:Well, I did tell him we did a concert version of it like years later. We did it like the 15th anniversary or something like that 20th anniversary. But uh, yeah, I did.
Maddie Orton:You know, that was my first broadway show if you listen to me and jesus christ superstar on tv. Yeah, I got to do that how do you feel about that genre versus I mean the stuff that you're more known for?
Norm Lewis:oh, I love it. I love it. I never funny enough, okay. So, tommy, I was lucky just to get that show, so I was. They were on the very last day of their callbacks.
Maddie Orton:And.
Norm Lewis:I got in because I was on a tour of Once on this Island and I got in somehow, luckily, and they hired me. I was like, oh my God. So that was great. But if you listen to the album, my voice, I think, sticks out more than anyone else's because if you, if you listen, to go to the mirror okay.
Norm Lewis:I had to sing it in a way that sounded a little bit more Broadway, even though it had a beat underneath it. So I had, like that legit sound that you know quote unquote classical sound if you will. But but there was that rock beat underneath it. And then in Jesus Christ Superstar, which I never thought that I would be part of, that which was great by the way.
Norm Lewis:Well, it was so much fun. But they put me as Caiaphas and Caiaphas has that. You know that low sound, you know he's singing there and then he has to sing a little higher. So I guess you know the range that I could do. They were like, okay, this guy could do this role right now. I've always wanted to play Judas but I could never do. I could never do eight shows a week.
Maddie Orton:I don't know how anybody does eight shows a week with that song. Yeah.
Norm Lewis:No, no, yeah, there's no way. I could do it one day, I could do one night.
Maddie Orton:Well, I want to see you do it. If there's a one night only concert version, I would love to see that.
Norm Lewis:Yes, yes, I could give myself one night and I could definitely try to be as authentic as possible. So, yeah, Okay.
Maddie Orton:Well, if anybody listening wants to do a one night only production of JCS starring. Norm Lewis. I am so there for it.
Norm Lewis:Exactly.
Maddie Orton:Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I cannot wait to see you at Mayo PAC. I'm sure people will be thrilled and I cannot wait to see what you do next, because it's always such a pleasure. Norm Lewis will perform at Mayo PAC on Friday, September 20th. For more information, visit mayoartsorg.
Maddie Orton:If you liked this episode, be sure to give us review, subscribe and tell your friends. A transcript of this podcast, as well as links to related content and more about the arts in New Jersey, can be found on JerseyArts. com. The Jersey Arts Podcast is presented by Art Pride New Jersey, advancing a state of creativity since 1986. The show is co-founded by, and currently supported by, funds from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts, with additional support from the National Endowment for the Arts. This episode was hosted, produced and edited by yours truly, Maddie Orton. Executive producers are Jim Atkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez. Special thanks to Norm Lewis and Nick Kaminsky. I'm Maddie Orton for the Jersey Arts Podcast. Thanks for listening.
