Oscar Nominee José Rivera Explores AI and Aging through Theater

Award-winning playwright José Rivera brings both his writing and directing talents to New Jersey Repertory Company’s production, Your Name Means Dream.  Rivera’s play explores the imagined highs and lows of artificial intelligence through the lens of healthcare–telling the story of Aislin, an aging woman who is being taken care of by Stacy, an A.I. entity.

Rivera may be most widely-known for his work in film. He earned an Oscar nomination for his screenplay of 2004’s The Motorcycle Diaries, and he was recently tapped to write the upcoming remake of the 1987 film, La Bamba. He sat down with the Jersey Arts Podcast to discuss his play, writing for stage and screen, and roller coaster that is show business.

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Chapters

• 0:54 Your Name Means Dream
• 4:00 Imagining the future of AI
• 8:10 Playwrighting and Directing
• 12:59 Screenwriting and Hollywood

Transcript

Maddie Orton: 0:02

I'm Maddie Orton and you're listening to the Jersey Arts Podcast. Award-winning playwright Jose Rivera brings both his writing and directing talents to New Jersey Repertory Company's production Your Name Means Dream. Rivera's play explores the imagined highs and lows of artificial intelligence through the lens of healthcare, telling the story of Aislin, an aging woman who is being taken care of by Stacy an AI entity. Rivera may be most widely known for his work in film. He earned an Oscar nomination for his screenplay of 2004's the Motorcycle Diaries and was recently tapped to write the upcoming remake of the 1987 film La Bamba. Rivera sat down with the Jersey Arts Podcast to discuss his play writing for stage and screen and the roller coaster that is show business. Take a listen.

Maddie Orton: 0:54

Jose Rivera, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Jose Rivera: 0:58

Thank you, it's nice to be here.

Maddie Orton: 1:00

So you are both the playwright and director of the upcoming production of Your Name Means Dream at New Jersey Repertory Company. Can you tell us just a little bit about the show?

Jose Rivera: 1:09

Yes, it's a two character play, full length play about an older woman who lives alone and has medical problems and a son who doesn't really want to take care of her, and a son who doesn't really want to take care of her, but he's rich and hires an AI robot to take care of his mom, and the play is the two of them. It's their relationship and how it changes over time and what they learn about each other and that kind of thing.

Maddie Orton: 1:40

So where did the idea of exploring AI through the lens of aging come for you?

Jose Rivera: 1:46

Yeah, I mean it's probably about five years ago I was thinking about.

Jose Rivera: 1:50

I mean, I'm in my 60s, so I'm always thinking about age and you know, and AI was becoming five years ago a really hot topic and it was still fresh and not well understood and I thought this is really interesting. I think this is the next big thing to sort of hit the culture, and I did think as I grow older, what I wouldn't want is to be at the mercy of machinery and not have a human being take care of me and you know I have two grown kids and not have a human being take care of me. And you know I have two grown kids and they have their own, you know, lives and stuff and siblings that live far away, and I thought, hmm, what, what, what would happen to me if I had no one but a machine to take care of me? And so you know, a lot of writers sort of write about what they fear the most. So that was what I was hearing the most and the play was really a way to explore that. How could that feel?

Maddie Orton: 2:53

like, and what would that be like? How?

Jose Rivera: 2:55

did you research for the piece? It's funny, I research. When I work in film, I tend to work in subjects that I know nothing about, so I have to do a lot of research subjects that I know nothing about, so I have to do a lot of research. For this I did very little research. I sort of went with my gut instincts on what AI would feel like and be like, you know, once it gets incredibly advanced. So actually I mean I'd read some articles but I kind of relied on a lifetime of watching science fiction movies, kind of relied on a lifetime of watching science fiction movies. You know, and robots have been in film since, you know, really the early 1900s, and so there was a lot to sort of draw on in terms of like the common mythology of what we imagine robots will be like. And you know, I wrote the play for two dear friends, so I crafted the characters kind of to reflect their personalities, and that was really the extent of my so-called research.

Maddie Orton: 3:58

That's so interesting. I mean, I've seen that in the past. You've mentioned that science fiction has played a big role in your development, I assume as a writer, but also as a person. You watched Twilight Zone, I think I read.

Jose Rivera: 4:11

Oh yeah, and that was my favorite TV show, yeah.

Maddie Orton: 4:14

So I imagine that this is sort of, in a way, well-trod territory for you, but also just the way that it's developed so rapidly. I think the specifics of what AI could entail are kind of new and for me, like I'm also very scared of this for better or worse. How did you sort of drill down on what aspects of AI felt the most pressing to you, and especially, I guess, within the narrative of healthcare and especially, I guess, within the narrative of health care.

Jose Rivera: 4:47

Yeah, I mean, my assumption was that this AI would always and only tell the truth, so she wouldn't have conspiracy theories or bad information, like you know, she wouldn't tell. You know the older woman to like drink Clorox bleach to take care of her viruses, you know, and that her, but she does approach medicine through a more holistic lens. You know she's really about, like Aileen the older woman, getting rid of her pills and doing yoga and nutrition and exercise in order to take care of her basic medical issues. But you know, I did stay away from anything that felt like really trendy medicine or trendy bad medicine. You know that we hear about all the time. I really wanted like to create a character the AI to be like an incredibly good friend who is compassionate and honest and not judgmental and really has her clients' best interests.

Maddie Orton: 6:02

In creating this? Did you come to any sort of peace with the idea of AI?

Jose Rivera: 6:13

or are you still as anxious as I am? Well, you know it's funny. I kind of like played both sides. For instance, the relationship with Aileen and Stacey. The AI is, in the final analysis is, in the final analysis, amazingly beneficial to both of them. There's a good symbiotic relationship between the two. So there's that story. Yet we hear occasional newscasts of the AI in the larger world. You know some AI smothering a man in his sleep. We hear about, you know, american ballet theater hiring an AI ballerina. That's interesting First time. There's a group called Skin Jobs that are convinced that, you know, ai are going to be our masters. So the play makes those points as well as the kind of like kind of loving, compassionate relationship that the AI has as a way to really show the complexity of this thing, that it's not evil or good, and there are cases in the play of real evil. And then the play demonstrates a kind of benign aspect. It's all speculative, like all good science fiction. It's all like, yeah, maybe.

Jose Rivera: 7:39

You know it could be, we don't know, and it's just sort of like. My feeling is like as a theater artist, you know my job is to present something that will excite conversations. You know, somebody once told me a long time ago that modern art is not about answering questions, but asking the right questions. So that's what I want the play to do is excite the right questions.

Maddie Orton: 8:10

So, as we discussed, you're both the playwright and the director of this piece. Do you find that those experiences work similar parts of your brain, for lack of a better description or is directing just such a completely different way of interacting with the play?

Jose Rivera: 8:25

I would say the goals are the same, which are to tell the story, same which are to tell the story. The play tells the story and then, as a director, I try to get the actors to tell the story. Now, that said, it is a very different use of creative muscle to direct actors and designers and to, like, make this thing. We're making this thing in three dimensions, you know, and it takes a lot of people and it takes a lot of, you know, coordination and communication on my part to make sure that my vision is understood and can be executed. So that is a very different set of skills as opposed to the very solitary and inward-looking activity of writing a play.

Maddie Orton: 9:22

Because this is one of your newer plays. There's only been one other production of this. Are you finding more elements in the material? As you direct it and see it up on its feet a second time.

Jose Rivera: 9:34

Yes, I am. Actually we did it before with the same actors in West Virginia, and so the team has now moved on to New Jersey. I am finding that I'm learning new things and hearing new things, and it's been more than a year since the actors have performed in the play, so in that year, you know, they have grown and their approach to the work is deeper and I hear things, you know I think their work is deeper than it was in West Virginia and so, yeah, I think we are experiencing the play in a very different way and and it's great because you know we we come with already a huge like fountain of knowledge and now we can be, we can fine tune, you know what we're discovering and make it even stronger and clearer and funnier and spots and that kind of thing.

Maddie Orton: 10:36

As the playwright, are there moments where you think to yourself like this is not what I put in the text, but I'm seeing it in a different way, on its feet and it's sort of like I assume the actors breathe a different life into it. Or you're able to pull moments out as the director that are not specifically there but are maybe sort of an overtone for lack of a better word that sort of developed.

Jose Rivera: 10:56

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's. You know, actors will always surprise you. Actors will always bring an energy or a rhythm to something you've never expected, and there can be so many discoveries in that, you know, in both subtle and in very overt ways. Like, the most overt way in this production is there's a scene.

Jose Rivera: 11:17

there can be so many discoveries in that, you know, and both subtle and in very overt ways, like the most overt way in this production is there's a scene where Stacy the AI is hacked and has a mental breakdown, and the way it's scripted is that she just has this like stream of consciousness, rambling word vomit of quotes from the Bible, from Shakespeare, from old movies, from rap songs, where she just spews them out in stream of consciousness form. And that's what I wrote. That's the text. But Sarah, the actress who plays the AI, took that and turned it into a dance.

Maddie Orton: 11:56

Oh, wow.

Jose Rivera: 11:57

Not only is she speaking you know the Koran and you know lines from Toni Morrison or whatever but she's also dancing, wow, and she's also, like the character we established earlier, sort of an encyclopedia of dance styles. So during her hacking she does like Bob Fosse, she does the taps, she does hip hop, she does the Charleston, she does ballet, she does some gymnastics and you know, it's all part of like the hacking moment and it's quite spectacular, I think. But that's a great example of like something that an actor just brought to the play that I did not invent, I just invented the words and she created this like choreographed nervous breakdown.

Maddie Orton: 12:52

Oh my gosh, I love that so much. You are perhaps most widely known as the Oscar nominated screenwriter of the Motorcycle Diaries, and it was recently announced that you're attached to a new project as the screenwriter of the upcoming remake of the 1987 film, la Bamba. So how does writing for screen feel for you versus writing for stage? How did you get into screenwriting?

Jose Rivera: 13:22

Yeah, it's funny, I didn't really start screenplays until after I was 40. Okay, and I had been writing plays and doing television until then. And then I had, you know, I had created a TV series was on ABC. It was canceled after one season and I was so bitter about the cancellation I said I'm never doing TV again and I'm only going to write movies. And so I started my movie career then and you know I've been lucky. I've had a lot of. You know I've been lucky. I've had a lot of. You know I've worked with some really interesting people. I mean, generally, 90 of films that are written never get made oh my gosh, if you look at my career, it's exactly 90.

Jose Rivera: 14:08

So you know, I've I had, you know, three or four films made and I've written many, many more. And so, you know, I tell myself every time I start a new film project and I'm like, okay, you're a professional, you can do this, you're going to do a great job, Don't fall in love, because it's going to break your heart later. And then every time I do, every time I fall in love, every time I get to the point where it's God, I love these characters and I love this story and I love this movie. And then you get your heart broken. So I'm hoping La Bamba does not fall into that category.

Jose Rivera: 14:48

You know who knows, I mean I'm working with, you know the Richie Valens story so fascinating, sure, and you know, luis Valdez's movie is beautiful and he doesn't know why we're doing a remake of it. You know, if I were him, I'd wonder the same thing, because he had created a perfect film. I mean beautiful, remake of it. If I were him, I'd wonder the same thing, because he had created a perfect film. I mean beautiful. However, the more research I did into the life of Ritchie Valens, the more I realized that the movie really missed a lot of interesting things and that the reality was actually really fascinating.

Jose Rivera: 15:24

For instance, in the original movie, if you remember, richie falls in love with Donna right Like love at first sight, and they meet in high school and, like you know, she's this cute, giggly girl. Well, in real life she was a troublemaker who was always in detention, she was always smoking in the girls' room and she was a bit of a rebel. That's great. And the first time they met she was with her boyfriend oh my gosh, you know. And Richie still liked and started. Richie cornered her at the party and started serenading her, singing a song just for her, and it just. That was it for the old boyfriend.

Jose Rivera: 16:01

He you know, those things, those details, made me fall in love with this story.

Maddie Orton: 16:07

And then Motorcycle Diaries. How did that come about?

Jose Rivera: 16:10

Yeah. So I was sitting at home minding my own business, my phone running, and it was my manager, rick, who's been my manager for like 35 years, and he said hey, they're looking for a writer to write the Motorcycle Diaries. Are you interested? Should I? Should I send you up for this? And I hadn't read the motorcycle diaries, either in Spanish or English, and I didn't know much about it. I knew something about Che Gulotta and Rick said and this Brazilian director, walter Salas, is attached, and that's what piqued my interest, because Walter's Film, central film central station is was nominated for an Academy award and it's one of the most beautiful films you'll ever see. It's just, you know, like amazing. So I said, yes, yes, send me up for this. And so I ended up meeting Walter for lunch in Beverly Hills.

Maddie Orton: 17:03

That sounds so cool. I love that yeah.

Jose Rivera: 17:06

It's so cliche oh it's wonderful, though.

Maddie Orton: 17:09

That sounds so cool. I love that.

Jose Rivera: 17:10

Yeah, it's so cliche, oh, it's wonderful, though it's so cool. And I kept thinking to myself if he is not like the film, the film is like beautiful and generous and smart and poetic. If he's none of those things, I'm going to hate this guy. And then he's everything in that film oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, just the most cultured, brilliant man and very sensitive, but you know like, and a real lover of cinema, one of the few people who can quote. You know, godard, and it's not ironic that's's amazing, yeah.

Jose Rivera: 17:44

Yeah and anyway. So Walter and I hit it off perfectly, and part of it was that our backgrounds are so different. Like his father was an ambassador oh wow, he was the Brazilian ambassador to France and to the United States. So Walter lived in the States and in France and Brazil. My father was a janitor, you know, my father scrubbed floors, you know. So we came from like completely different backgrounds and I think he found my background kind of charming, I found his background kind of charming, and so we kind of met in the middle and, yeah, by the end, by the end of lunch, he had hired me. He had said you want to do this? And I said, yes, I want to do it. And so that's how it started.

Maddie Orton: 18:27

It must be so surreal to know that 90% of the screenplays you make will not get made. But you've also been nominated for an Oscar. I mean that just feels like such tremendous gambling, such a good return on investment, but tremendous emotional gamble turn on investment, but it's a tremendous like emotional gamble.

Jose Rivera: 18:50

Yeah, I think. Um. Well, I mean, you know, after the nomination, that's when most of my work came. It's hard to manage like every. Suddenly you know dreamworks that wanted nothing to do with me. Suddenly you know they're on the phone you know, we've got a project for you.

Jose Rivera: 19:02

you're the the perfect writer for this. I'm like, yes, I'm the same writer I was six months ago. You didn't care, and so, yeah, I had a lot of offers and a lot of things. But you know, and people like me are hired because we come with an award or something and it takes the risk out of it. That's the only reason. It's not because I was a better writer after the motorcycle virus, it's that I was less of a risk to the business. Yet that didn't prevent these particular studios in not making these films that I wrote. You know, the thing I wrote for DreamWorks never got made. You know I wrote a film for Sony for Halle Berry that never got made. You know many, many films. I worked for a British company called Velvet Octopus for a film about Greenpeace. That never got made. So, yeah, I wrote a film for Disney about wolves. You know that never got made. So you just never know.

Maddie Orton: 20:04

It seems like you have a very like, well adjusted, healthy attitude about this, though, because I I could see just like staying up at night ruminating, but it also seems like you've come to some sort of I don't know what relationship with the industry and and also balancing the theater, which was your original love with film.

Jose Rivera: 20:22

This actually sounds really great yeah, I credit fatherhood for that. I think my kids and you know this, you know, as your child gets older, you know they ground you and it's hard to take shit seriously when you have kids Like you take them seriously, you take their world seriously, like so seriously, you know, and this other stuff seems like. You know you can have a tantrum, mr Producer, but you know I deal with my children and they get my attention. You don't, you know.

Maddie Orton: 20:56

Right.

Jose Rivera: 20:57

But you know I listen. I've had, I've been fired from seven movies. I've had terrible reviews. I've been replaced by actors. They can't hurt me. You know what I'm saying You've done it all, I can't, you can't hurt me anymore. I think what keeps me going is that I do love writing.

Maddie Orton: 21:16

Yeah, clearly that's great.

Jose Rivera: 21:18

Yeah, when it's just me and the writing, I feel fine. It's just when it starts getting into the land of executives and you know, then it becomes complicated.

Maddie Orton: 21:29

So would you have any advice for early career playwrights, screenwriters?

Jose Rivera: 21:35

Yeah, don't do it. No, Well, listen, if you can be persuaded by someone telling you not to do it, then you shouldn't do it. You're going to do it. You're going to do it. If you want to do it, telling you not to do it, then you shouldn't do it. You're gonna do it. You're gonna do it. If you want to do it, you're gonna do it, no matter what I say, what anyone says, if you're in love with it, you have the passion and the skill, then you're gonna do it. And so my advice is like to just think in the long term, like if you're 25 and you're just starting out and you know, just remember that you're in an apprenticeship that's going to last your entire life long, that you're always going to learn You're never going to know it all and that pace yourself and remember it's. You know, when the setbacks are not the end of the world, that there's always. You know, like someone once said, you know movies are like trains If you miss one, there's always another one coming.

Jose Rivera: 22:32

That's great, and it's sort of like that Like all right, you get fired, Hopefully knock on wood, there's another one coming, you know, Jump on that one. And then, you know, get fired again.

Maddie Orton: 22:45

I love that. Well, Jose Rivera, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I hope everybody has a great experience with your Name. Means Dream and best of luck with everything.

Jose Rivera: 22:57

Thank you so much. It's really great to talk to you.

Maddie Orton: 23:02

Your Name Means Dream runs from October 31st through November 24th at New Jersey Repertory Company. For more information, visit NJRep. org. If you liked this episode, be sure to give us a review, subscribe and tell your friends. A transcript of this podcast, as well as related content and more about the arts in New Jersey, can be found on JerseyArts. com. The Jersey Arts Podcast is presented by Art Pride New Jersey, advancing a state of creativity since 1986. The show is co-founded by and currently supported by funds from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts, with additional support from the National Endowment for the Arts. This episode was hosted, produced and edited by yours truly, Maddie Orton. Executive producers are Jim Atkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez. Special thanks to Jose Rivera. I'm Maddie Orton for the Jersey Arts Podcast. Thanks for listening.