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Jersey Arts Podcast
The Jersey Arts Podcast presents in-depth, one-on-one conversations with the liveliest and most intriguing personalities in New Jersey’s arts scene. From the casts of hit shows to critically acclaimed film producers; from world-renowned poets to classically trained musicians; from groundbreaking dance visionaries to cutting-edge fine artists, our podcast connects you to what’s happening in your local arts community.
Jersey Arts Podcast
Ferrell Studios Premieres Their First Full Length Play: 'The Shape of Things'
Founded by Luke Ferrell in 2022, Ferrell Studios offers exceptional and affordable performing arts education and theatrical productions. They offer a variety of classes and programs, including acting, musical theatre, playwriting, film and television acting, public speaking, and theory and criticism as well as private lessons for those who want to focus on a specific area of study.
At Ferrell Studios, they believe that the arts have the power to inspire, uplift, and transform. They strive to create a positive, supportive environment where students can feel confident and comfortable expressing themselves.
With a mission statement like that, there is a lot to expect from Ferrell Studios so it’s no surprise that their first full length play is something as thought-provoking as “The Shape of Things.”
Starring Catherine Hunt, Max Miiller, Breanna Schad, and Steven Franklin, the four-character play explores how far someone is willing to go and how much they change for who (or what) they love.
Here you can listen to our interview with director Uchenna Agbu and stars, Catherine Hunt and Max Miller. There’s a lot to break down.
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This is Gina Marie Rodriguez and you're listening to the Jersey Arts Podcast. Today, we're talking about Ferrell Studios and their upcoming production, the Shape of Things by Neil LaButte. Founded by Luke Ferrell in 2022, ferrell Studios offers exceptional and affordable performing arts education and theatrical productions. Affordable performing arts education and theatrical productions. They offer a variety of classes and programs, including acting, musical theater, playwriting, film and television acting, public speaking, and theory and criticism, as well as private lessons for those who want to focus on a specific area of study.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:At Ferrell Studios, they believe that the arts have the power to inspire, uplift and transform. They strive to create a positive, supportive environment where students can feel confident and comfortable expressing themselves. With a mission statement like that, there is a lot to expect from Ferrell Studios, so it's no surprise that their first full-length play is something as thought-provoking as the Shape of Things, starring Katherine Hunt, max Miller, brianna Scadd and Stephen Franklin. The four-character play explores how far someone is willing to go and how much they change for who or what they love. Stick around to hear my interview with director Uchenna Agbu and stars Katherine Hunt and Max Miller. There's a lot to break down.
Max Miller:Hi, my name is Max Miller. There's a lot to break down. Hi, my name is Max Miller, my pronouns are he, him, and I play Adam in the Shape of Things.
Catherine Hunt:Hi, catherine Hunt. I play Evelyn in the Shape of Things and I use she her pronouns.
Uchenna Agbu:Hi, my name is Uchenna Agbu. I use she. They pronouns and I am the director of the Shape of Things. Thank you so much for being am the director of the Shape of.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Things. Thank you so much for being here to talk about the Shape of Things by Neil LaButte. I am excited and also scared, because this is a heavy show. You know there's a lot going on, but I can't wait to talk to you guys about it. However, I'd love to talk to you about Feral Studios first, because I feel like this is a relatively young performing arts organization. I think your inaugural production was what about two years ago, in 2022? I mean, I've lost all track of time, but I think that's pretty recent. So I'd love to hear more about what the studio offers. Uchenna perhaps that's something you can touch on, sure.
Uchenna Agbu:So first of all, thank you so much for having us and I'm so excited to talk about Ferrell Studios, my favorite community theater. So it was started by our friend Luke Ferrell in August 22, back when he was, I want to say, a sophomore at Rutgers. And he kind of started it because he noticed a lack of access to arts education in different parts of the country, whether that was due to the education systems they had, transportation or financial barriers. So he just kind of decided to start his own theater company and make that access widely available. So Ferrell Studios offers virtual classes and in-person classes and also does full productions.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I can't get over the fact that he was only a sophomore in his undergraduate year.
Uchenna Agbu:That's so huge, and I believe he was one of my former students. So I have to say I'm filmmaking classes, playwriting classes, anything you can really name in kind of theater and performing arts, beryeral Studios kind of has it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:This is so cool to me. I'm fascinated by this whole production. Thank you so much for giving us a little bit of a background about Feral Studios, and now I guess we should talk about the main event, which is the Shape of Things, and, if I'm correct, I believe you mentioned to me earlier that this is the first full length production that Feral Studios is doing. Is that correct? Is the first full-length production that feral studios is doing? Is that correct, or the first full-length play?
Uchenna Agbu:I should say yes this is the first full-length play that feral studios is producing. Um, we have done play festivals with shorter plays and one acts, but this is the first full sled play that's happening. How exciting is that for you? So exciting, so scary. Just because it is like with musical theater everything is so fun and so colorful. And the first thing I said, directing this, was like I want everything to be black, white and gray and I don't want it to be any color until the end. And he was like, hey, go for it. So I'm really glad that he's letting me do it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:See, that's what I mean about the show being heavy, right that? See, that's what I mean about the show being heavy, right, that's what I'm I'm scared, but looking forward to it. If you know that's what art should be. I mean, it depends, right, like we were saying about musicals, they can be fun and colorful and bright, but they should still make you think. Art should always make you think, and this show is just a prime example of making you think, is just a prime example of making you think. So I want to ask I'm going to go back for a second, because I want to talk to the actors here as well about your experience with Feral Studios. So, catherine, if you'd like to get us started, what has your experience been working with the studio? And then we'll jump right to Max.
Catherine Hunt:Honestly incredible. I mean, I worked with Uchenna in college, so I already had a personal relationship with a lot of people who were like making the thing happen. But I can share that, like you know, I'm like you know, in my adulthood I'm working a nine to five, and so making room for art and play and like being like with other people and doing something that's like outside of like job and money, um, is super important, and I was finding it really hard to navigate that like where do I go? What do I do? And I had found that, like, although the community theater space is wide in New Jersey and it has a lot of offerings, I felt like there was a lot of like insidery, like you had to be a member at a certain place and pay money, or maybe you had to participate beyond, like just being able to be in rehearsals and in the show, and I get that. You know everything counts.
Catherine Hunt:But I found that kind of to be a barrier for me of like, oh, I don't know anyone at this studio.
Catherine Hunt:I'm kind of nervous about auditioning I don't or they're like giving priority to past members, and so I I was like, okay, this you know I'm I'm going at this from a perspective of like let me just try this new thing. It started by someone like I know who's you know new and fresh in the scene and like let's see what happens. So just it feels like kind of a breath of fresh air to me and a really wonderful opportunity for like young working professionals who are kind of like in between in the world of like you're kind of just figuring it out, you don't really. It's like your 20s are weird and so it's fun to like be in your 20s and be weird but also put on an amazing show together. So that's that's kind of how I feel about it and that like it's. It's kind of like a I found a good sense of community, um, with other people through it as well. So you know, I'm I'm just I'm grateful for it and super excited to pull the thing off.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I love that. Thank you so much, Max. How do you feel?
Max Miller:Well, like Catherine, I was fortunate enough to meet Uchenna and also Luke at college at Rutgers, and I actually didn't do anything with Feral Studios until a couple months ago when I did one of their one act festivals. But being on the outside, seeing them work so hard at this community and at this group, I was like I want to be a part of that, I want to join, and so getting to actually be in a show directed by Uchenna, have Luke oversee it with everyone that I've been able to see grow as artists through the past couple of years has been really cool, and seeing myself grow with them. So it feels kind of like playing dress up with your friends, like going back to when we were kids but then realize that we're becoming adults and artists in our own right. So it's really cool getting to see everything grow together and kind of see what the future holds.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I love what you said there about how you found inspiration, because there's something about watching someone else's passion and allowing that to invigorate you, and I think that's well the beauty of art. But what community theater should be? You should be thriving right in this environment, surrounded by people who feel the same way as you do, and it almost validates your own feelings about why you love the theater so much. Yeah, I love hearing about that, so thank you for sharing. I always love to ask. I love hearing about that, so thank you for sharing. I always love to ask. This is for the director. As I mentioned before, this piece is a lot, and I think it's a little jarring in the sense that it certainly forces audiences to think and reevaluate their worldview. Really, this I don't want to give anything away. I'm terrified of spoilers here, and there's just so much to the piece that I think everybody needs to just experience for themselves in the audience. But I'd love to know how you approach something so sensitive as a director. What is your process?
Uchenna Agbu:And I think the key word there is process. I'm very much a process over result kind of person and that's how I kind of direct. So the most important thing for me was to make sure we were cultivating a safe and fun environment outside of the scene work and I'm so lucky I get to work with my friends every day, so it's not too difficult to make sure that we are having fun and we feel safe to talk to each other about the themes in the show, the different things that are going on, what we're comfortable with and not comfortable with. Even you know, as someone who's not in the scenes, as someone who's really just kind of watching and directing them, it still matters for everyone who's working on the show to make sure that you are comfortable and feeling safe and having fun. That's one of my number one rules is having fun, because if you're not having fun, I don't know why we're doing it so, catherine, your character again.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I'm hesitant to share too much about her because I don't want to slip and give any spoilers, but, god, she must be a blast to play. And oh yes, I'm curious as to how her worldview, because she is an art, the character is an artist in her own right, so it's a very specific worldview and I I want to know how you're approaching that and what it's like to play this character, to create this character.
Catherine Hunt:I mean, I think like it would be really easy. I think the way the script is written is that she is not given a lot of substance of like this is a human being to really dig into, and so that's that's where I'm like. I have to do that work on my own to be like how, how am I like her Like, how, how is she human? What, like, how is like? Where does that come from? Um, and, yeah, it's, it's fun, it's so much fun, um, it's challenging, it's kind of scary, um, because you know, it's like a vulnerable thing, uh, to be, you know, playing someone who's not super likable she's not a very likable gal um, but also trying to bring moments of realness, honesty, truth to someone who's like kind of not a super straight up person. So it's, it's definitely a challenge, but I'm, I'm, it's, it is a lot of fun.
Catherine Hunt:And when I'm thinking about her, I'm thinking about, like, the idea of intent versus impact, kind of here, too, like, I'm kind of twisting in that, like you know, she's like, again, not likable, doesn't do the best things, but the impact of her actions versus the intent are something interesting and that I'm bringing to the conversation whenever I'm, you know, working on it, cause I I think it would be um a one dimensional approach for me to just view her as the antagonist, right? I don't think that's fun. I don't think that's fun to watch, to just be like that's the antagonist, you know it's like that's that's not interesting, to have someone you know do something that maybe is like not the best thing, but like have remorse or slip up or hesitate, or you know, like it's there's moments to play in there and be like, oh, there's, because I don't think the script itself lends it itself to that. So that's, that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of infuse in her character. It's just a bit realness, duality.
Catherine Hunt:It's not again, it's not black and white. There's the gray. I think she's the gray, like to the T. She is morally gray, as morally gray as you can get.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I really love how you tied that in for what Jenna said earlier. But you just said something. You said intent versus impact. Right, that I'm really latching on to because, while I haven't seen the show in God knows how many years, we're going to pretend that I'm super young. It's, I think, a really great. I don't know a really concise way of describing the show. Intent versus impact is like the entire takeaway for me. Not that I'm telling our audience what they should take away from this piece, and I do think that it lends itself right to a bunch of different interpretations. But Max, your character well, your character is like the polar opposite of Evelyn, so I'm curious to hear your take. But also, Catherine, you mentioned how vulnerable it is to play the antagonist, whereas Max, you're playing someone who, the character himself is quite vulnerable. So I would love to hear how you work through that as a performer no-transcript.
Max Miller:I also think when dealing with you know the impact versus intent. It helps deepen the surface material, especially playing Adam, because it's very easy to do someone's bad and someone's good and even as an audience member watching something like that, it's very surface level, as Catherine said. But especially when you're playing someone, it kind of deepens your understanding of the character because you can't go at it. As you know, I'm the quote-unquote victim in this situation and that person's the bad person in the scene and we should play it like that and it allows you to bring your emotions out when you're really not playing it, as biased as that is. So it's, it's a lot of fun, but it's challenging in all the good ways just hearing you guys talk about it, I'm so excited.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:but I'm curious because this exists as a film as well. I believe your film counterparts are Paul Rudd and Rachel Weisz, who were in the original stage play as well. Now, actors have very different views on the research that they do when going into a new performance, so I'm curious has anyone seen the film version of the Shape of Things?
Uchenna Agbu:Not yet.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Are you planning on watching?
Uchenna Agbu:afterwards. Oh yes, I have already purchased the DVD. It's so hard to find online. But kind of my philosophy with watching other versions of a show that you are currently doing or about to do shortly put, don't do it. I think it's best to wait until you know exactly what it is you want to do with it, and then it's fun to kind of look at how yours is the same, how yours differs from what you see in any other iteration of it. But I feel like we've gotten to a point where we could watch it and it would not affect our performance, even though we haven't performed yet.
Catherine Hunt:I also felt I was. I didn't want to be comparing myself to someone else, which is that's always what's going to happen, or just letting that I don't know. You want to be as true to you or as true to like you're. What you're bringing to the table, you're going to bring something. Every actor is going to bring something different to a character. What you're bringing to the table, you're going to bring something. Every actor is going to bring something different to the character.
Max Miller:So just trying to keep it as pure and not in comparison as possible and I almost want to keep it in this like little bubble of our show. I've never done the show, I've never seen it, so the only understanding I have of evelyn is katherine's portrayal and all the other actors. So so I kind of like only existing in that understanding of the show as we're doing it for now. I'd love to see it after, but I kind of like just that world that we have.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I think that's so important and I happen to be of the same mind. But I'm always surprised because actors do have their own processes and it is different for everyone. I have heard and spoken to actors who like to see how it was done previously, if they can see different iterations, whereas they won't just watch one production, they'll watch a bunch, if they can find them, and then kind of pick and choose, which you know may be different than my process, but I find it fascinating. So I like to ask, because you never know.
Catherine Hunt:I think I watched a trailer of it that they did in the West end with the guy from Bridgerton. I think that was the furthest extent that I was like I need to see what this looks like. And then I was like, okay, that's what it looks like, alrighty, that's good, I'm not going to watch beyond that. So, anyways, he, he was in it and on that. So anyways he, he was in it. And I was like, oh, this guy's in it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:So I think I watched a three minute trailer, and that was that.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Was that that counts, that's fine essentially actually so I did minor, minor research on nilabute himself, because I'm not familiar with many of his other shows I I happen to have known this one from, like I said, many moons ago. But critics in the past have labeled Neil deBute's work, or sometimes himself, misanthropic. So you know, misanthropic is disliking the humankind and I'm curious as to having been working on this production now, how do you respond to that claim? Do you agree? Do you disagree? Do you find the gray in that statement?
Uchenna Agbu:I think I would agree, but I also think it's important to take written words from a playwright and kind of create a different world around it, rather than what the playwright's personal beliefs might be, unless they're wild. But in this case I think that first read of the playwright's personal beliefs might be, unless they're wild, but in this case I think that first read of the play and maybe some of his other work, he would be like yeah, this, this guy doesn't really like people, like and that's valid like people aren't great. But he writes from such a perspective, in my opinion, where it's like it feels like Evelyn is the ultimate evil and there is no other side to her, which is why I really appreciate what Catherine's doing with the character and it's like she is a human being. She is someone who's capable of loving other people and being kind to other people. Maybe she's not always choosing to do so, but she is a human and I think that was the most important thing that I was looking for.
Uchenna Agbu:Casting the show is someone who I thought would show different sides of this person rather than just play it one no, and be like she's an evil person who hates other people and does bad things because, like you said, that's boring, that's no fun, it's. It's much harder as an audience to watch something like this and think, oh, I might be a little bit similar to her, maybe I can see her point of view, maybe I can see his point of view. Maybe he's evil and she's not. I think it's really. It's really hard to read this on a first read and think those things. But depending on who you have performing it which I'm very lucky to have these two playing these two characters it can really change how you view the story based on what people do with it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:That was so well said, I'm a little bit speechless. I think that, knowing who Evelyn is, and'm really interested to see, catherine, how you are humanizing her. I mean, she is a human right and I don't even like using that term humanizing but we've said before that she is the antagonist and possibly the ultimate evil in this world. But I haven't seen an example of a more empathetic Evelyn and I'm not necessarily saying that's the approach that you're going for, but I'm intrigued. Let's say that I am intrigued by everything we've been saying, and I'm talking a lot now, so I'm going to throw it back to you. But, catherine and Max, I'm talking a lot now, so I'm gonna throw it back to you. But, catherine and Max, I would love to hear your take on on the misanthrope.
Catherine Hunt:You know critique yes, yes, sure, right, like surface level, as you said. Sure, I got it, maybe, but I, I personally, I just think it's honest. Maybe that's what that's more kind of. What I grabbed to is. I'm like this feels honest.
Catherine Hunt:I don't know I've done things that I've like stayed up at night being like I did a bad thing. You know, like I feel like everyone has had moments where they're like, ooh, like I went into a morally great place that I really I shouldn't have gone into. You know, like it is human to push the boundaries and go too far, and so that's where I don't know if it's believing mankind is doomed to be horrible and hurt each other. I'm just like maybe it's just honest of our mishaps and slip-ups and, yes, maybe some of them are more severe or couldn't be prolonged, slip-ups that aren't just a moment. But you know, I I think, like I'm of the belief that, like I don't know, evil is not like just born, it's created, and there's environments that people become, you know the way they are in, and so that's kind of how I'm approaching her too. Is I'm like, hey, I don't, I don't think she's evil. I mean, I know that that's the way that that's it's written, but I don't, I don't think she is, and I also am like interested in like, okay, so what kind of environment would like produce a person that would, like you know, have these intentions? Like like that's what I'm interested in it, you know, um, because honestly, I'm sure there's someone out there that has had these thoughts. You know what I'm saying.
Catherine Hunt:Like I think that he didn't just invent this concept from the sky. Like I'm sure there's some reality in it. So, you know, grounding into like all right, like, let's be like full. Like this is a real person, like okay, where did she grow up? What were her parents like? Who like who is she friends with in high school? Like who, like who is she friends with in high school? What like like what? What led her to this moment? What happens to her after that? Like those are all important questions for me because it helps me, like understand that it's real and it's not just like I'm just going to be as mean as I can be, like that.
Catherine Hunt:That doesn't feel rewarding. Um, so, yeah, I think, think he writes from a place of, yeah, maybe a bit of I don't even know the word. It's like distaste, disdain for humanity, a bit of mistrust in humanity. But I also think it's honest and there is room in there for like everyone trips up in this show, it's not just one person, and so I think that that's an equalizing ground of like we are humans, we trip up, that I like, that we're all on. That's kind of where I land is. I'm like we are all. The imperfection is not just one person, it's everyone. Everyone falls victim to it, and I'd like to believe they would get back up as well after that, after that scene. So that's where I'll leave it.
Max Miller:Yeah, I kind of I agree with the whole. Is the playwright writing from a distaste for humanity or more just portraying something that could happen and kind of going, here you go. I'm going to steal from my dad here, but he always, whenever we talk, he's always saying you know, he doesn't know if humans are good or if they're bad, or maybe they're just self interested, maybe they just do things out of selfishness and that could be good, that you could do something out of selfishness that ends up being good for another person. So I don't know exactly if it's a negative portrayal of people or if it's just. You know if you can certainly walk away with that opinion. I don't know if I don't think that I walk away with that opinion after doing the show. I think I'm kind of. I like to see how nuanced human beings are and how, if someone does one bad thing or a couple bad things, does that make them a bad person or does that make their actions bad? So I don't know. That's what I just take away from it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I love how philosophical this conversation has gotten. And we haven't even seen the show, right? I mean, you guys are working on it, but I haven't seen the show. And we're already talking about all of these really important ideas of humanity, right?
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Because, catherine, what did you just say that you know you've pushed the boundaries of, like the moral gray, and you're right, I don't necessarily like thinking about it.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:I, you know, I don't want to focus on the bad things that I've done, but have I absolutely been plagued by, you know, horrible things that I've done from 20 years ago?
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Yeah, but I mean, that is something that lives in all of us and I think that's the beauty of this work of us, and I think that's the beauty of this work, that it does really force you to accept that maybe you know that I won't say evil, but that kind of unfortunate nature does live within all of us, and that's I'm just coming back to what I said before why this show is heavy. Right, there's a lot going on, but that's what makes it so thrilling. That's I can't I mean, I shouldn't be like raving about a show that I haven't seen yet, but like I'm just so excited to talk about it and I guess I want to know from you what are you most excited about. We've talked about a lot, but what are you most excited about? We've talked about a lot, but what are you most excited about when it comes to bringing this piece to the public?
Catherine Hunt:The audience. I feel like sorry, max, I just interrupted you, the audience, and I want this debate to happen. As people leave the theater, I want them to be like so who's in the wrong? People leave the theater. I want them to be like so who's in the wrong? Well, I want you guys to to talk to each other and to dissect it. I, like you know I. It's. It's not like watching reality tv, but it is the guise of like you know you. You feel like you're far enough removed from it where you can debate characters, intentions and impacts and whatever, and like so I. I'm excited for people to just like come along for the ride, live for the drama of it and then debate afterwards like I, you should be left with questions, you should be left being like oh, I don't know who, what, so I'm, I'm excited for just people to experience it.
Max Miller:I'm really excited to hear on stage little gasps from the audience and little like just at certain moments, because it is you know again, without saying too much, it is a play that takes you on a ride. So I almost wish I could listen in on people's thoughts of oh, this is definitely going to happen. Oh, that did not go the way I thought it would. So that's what I'm looking forward to is seeing people, their views, change throughout the play of the different characters and how they end up reacting to the way the story goes. Maybe it goes exactly the way they thought it would and maybe it goes in a totally different direction. So I'm really excited for that.
Uchenna Agbu:I am in the same line of thinking. I'm just and usually I'm not really thinking about the audience when I'm directing a show I'm just like what we create is what we create and that's where it ends. But with this show specifically, I'm so excited to sit in the audience. I get to sit in the audience and be with people as they experience this, because it's going to be weird. There are parts of this play that are awkward, there are parts that are scary, there are parts that are incredibly funny, and being able to sit next to people as they experience that, I think is going to be a lot of fun and I just I hope that they feel like they are right there with everything that's happening on stage.
Uchenna Agbu:The way this play was written in the, you know, in the first couple of pages it says to be performed without intermission and without vows, and we're also doing it with no house speech, so it's just lights off. It all happens in two hours lights back on and everyone goes home. So I think that in and of itself is going to be just a weird experience. So I'm just I'm excited to see how people take that in and how it affects their understanding and experience of the play.
Max Miller:I do, now that Uchenna has brought up that there's really funny moments. The most interesting part of this whole process has been how light it feels to perform this show, even though there are certainly darker moments. I'm having a really good time and maybe it's the atmosphere created, but it does. It is surprisingly, uh interesting how fun it can feel and how fun certain scenes feel for the actors, but also for the audience.
Catherine Hunt:It it, you know, hopefully a couple laughs yeah, I think it's supposed to be like a little ridiculous, like just a little like it's pushing it to be like okay, this is a little ridiculous. And we also, I feel like during our first table read um, one of our stage managers had like I don't think she'd ever read it before and she was gasping. She was like she had such vocal reactions and it was so much fun to have. It was just so fun to experience that together, like reading it like a drama column or like a really good page-turning book. The plot speaks for itself. I'm excited for those moments, for people to experience that.
Gina Marie Rodriguez:Whether we consider this show a dark comedy, a dramedy or simply a drama lies in the mind of the beholder. As you've heard, this show begs conversation. You get to decide, and I would be curious to know where you land. You can get your tickets and learn more at feralstudioscom. If you liked this episode, be sure to review, subscribe and tell your friends. A transcript of this podcast, links relevant to the story and more about the arts in New Jersey can be found at jerseyartscom. The Jersey Arts Podcast is presented by Art Pride New Jersey, advancing a state of creativity since 1986. The show was co-founded by and currently supported by, funds from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts, with additional support from the National Endowment for the Arts. This episode was hosted, edited and produced by me, gina Marie Rodriguez. Executive producers are Jim Atkinson and Isaac Cernodiez, and my thanks to today's guests, uchenna Agbu, catherine Hunt and Max Miller, for their time. I'm Gina Marie Rodriguez for the Jersey Arts Podcast. Thanks for listening.
